New drug war throws up innocent casualties
Tulsathit Taptim
The Nation
When Liverpool football star Steven Gerrard gave a press interview in Thailand three years ago, I asked him one controversial question: What do you think about Thai kids wearing fake "Reds" jerseys to support their team because the authentic Liverpool kits are too expensive over here?
His answer was something that I liked, though he didn't look that happy saying it. And, to honour a promise to an LFC official concerned that both the question and response were too sensitive, I have always kept Gerrard's reply to myself.
What is the point of this anecdote? Tulsie should be ashamed that he didn't report what was news.
The issue of a football team's copyright is a far cry from the life and death matter of drug patents, but the ongoing showdown between Thailand and the United States over intellectual property rights to drugs brought back that brief encounter.
I agree football jerseys are not a matter of life and death, so why the comparison.
In today's world, Gerrard, as a human being, as his club's ambassador and as someone wearing most of the famous global brands from head to toe, simply cannot give the same answer to that question. To play the part of champion of the poor is too easy - so is preaching the danger that piracy can inflict terrible woe on capitalism or human innovation.
He gave an answer. Tulsie refused to publish it. Quite honestly, from my perspective, I don't think when Thais steal a company's brand and put it on substandard garment or when they reverse engineer software or medicine they are inflicting a terrible woe on capitalism or limiting human innovation. What they are are doing is stealing. Even if Thais steal from other people, other companies, other countries, the world will still turn and there will be fantastic marketing geniuses and engineers out there continuing to make and develop awesome products.
Both sides have strong arguments. Shouldn't drugs, especially life-saving ones, be classified in the same categories as air, food and shelter, something all human beings should have equal access to if it is not beyond the limit of fellow human beings to share?
I love this idiotic argument. Why doesn't Tulsie give away The Nation for free if he is so into sharing? Why doesn't Tulsie work for free? My som tam lady doesn't give me free som tam just because I am hungry. My landlady doesn't give me a free place to stay because I need a home.
As far as Thailand goes, when does it ever share with anybody? Thailand is no leader when it comes to giving money away for humanitarian crises. Thailand is no leader in international philanthropy. Thailand is no leader in giving away its innovations and discoveries for free.
Thailand always seems to have its hands out like a beggar, but what exactly is its contribution to humanity?
Yes, ideally. But in the real world, demands are endless and unless you motivate the suppliers with sufficient incentives, they will stop producing and the whole issue could easily become a case of suicidal idealism.
The bottom line comes down to who you are and who you represent. As a scientist you will want the product of your education and intelligence to benefit all mankind. But a scientist needs funding, and if you are funding that scientist you will want to make sure you get something in return.
The bottom line comes down to, at least with Aids and drugs, is that Aids is a preventable disease and Thailand is the sex capital of the world. If Thailand shut down its brothels, massage parlours, red light districts, and other venues that sell sex, the Aids rate would fall. It would probably fall to such a level that the government probably could afford medication for the part of population that doesn't engage in risky sexual behavior.
I learned a valuable lesson in high school that has stayed with me my entire life: Having unsafe sex puts my life at risk. When having unsafe sex, the possibility occurs that I might get a venereal disease, including Aids. I have been hearing my whole life that I could get Aids from unsafe sex or from intravenous drug use. If I don't engage in risky sexual behavior or share needles with heroin addicts, the chances of catching Aids is almost impossible.
When I have gone to donate blood, they Red Cross asked me a few questions. One of which is: "Have you engaged in unsafe sex recently?" Another questions is: "Have you had sex with prostitutes?"
I have a lot of sympathy for people who are dying from terminal diseases. But if I ever developed one, especially because of my own irresponsible behavior, I would not want a foreign country footing the bill for my own stupidity. That is shameless.
The Thai government is shameless for making the US pay for the consequences of its multi-billion dollar sex industry, especially when it refuses to tax the profiteers and users to fund the health consequences of having such an industry.
If you are an activist, you will want to make sure that the "something in return" is not so obscene that it defeats the original purpose of the invention, in this case medicine.
It's another case of an imperfect world. What's most disturbing is the question of whether we are now capable of making it perfect.
Thailand has done nothing to make the world a perfect place, in terms of its public policy concerning the sex trade or in the fight against corruption or in the fight to alleviate poverty. Indeed, it has done more to sustain those ills in society rather than eliminate them.
What is Thailand's contribution to research and development in the realm of cutting edge medicine? What has Thailand done to makes sure its scientists are at the top of their field? What has Thailand done to make sure that it is doing everything possible to develop an independent pharmaceutical industry outfitted with the best minds and best equipment? The answer is nothing.
All we know is that great and valuable innovations can be copied - and the copying can be a desperate but worthwhile measure in desperate times.
The drugs don't need to be copied. Thailand is a wealthy country and it can afford the medicines if it had the right priorities.
What we don't know is exactly how the "theft" can affect the world in the long run. Drug companies have painted a gloomy picture of new ideas running dry, but world history shows that medical revolutions can also be influenced by truly noble aspirations.
The well of new ideas will never run dry. But Thailand can choose to steal another people's ideas and make money from that or it can create things on its own and contribute to world society.
Thailand, for practical reasons, wants to copy HIV/Aids drugs, as well as some medicines for heart disease. The resulting conflict with the United States has degenerated into something of a smear campaign and each side has accused the other of lacking ethics and compassion.
No, Tulsie is a liar and he knows he is a liar. Thailand's reasons for stealing another country's products were not practical. The practical thing to do was to buy the drugs from the manufacturer and be grateful that such a product exists. Here is the truth: The Thai government will steal what it can from other countries if it can get away with it. Thailand doesn't want to raise taxes to pay for medicines nor does it want to shut down its multi-billion dollar sex industry. The Thai government could care less if the youth of the country are dying left and right from Aids, other diseases, motorbike and car accidents, floods, and other preventable disasters. The record is clear cut: Taking care of the poor and sick has never been a priority of the Thai government. And to pretend otherwise is a sick joke. I can name ten things off the top of my head that the government could do to make the lives the poor and sick better, but those things have nothing to do with ripping off foreign countries, which is why the Thai government won't do them.
Thailand has developed by leeching off the productivity and technology of developed countries for years, because that is the easy way of doing things, and there have been no consequences from the developed world for doing this. After many years, the US has said enough, and now the Thai government is angry that their victim no longer chooses to be a victim.
Also, there is a political element to this debate that Tulsie is too cowardly to point out. The Thai government needs a foreign scapegoat to blame all its problems on. The Thai media, notably The Nation, loves to play this game also. Because it is much easier for the Thai government and other activists to blame the US for Thailand's problems than it is for it to take responsibility for the problems in society.
With the YouTube and Aids drugs controversies, Thailand can beat the drums of Bang Rajan, get the people in a nationalistic frenzy, burn American flags in front of the US embassy, and call Bush a dirty terrorist. While the Thai media focuses on its anti-American campaign, it doesn't have to do the real work of reporting on the corruption and malfeasance of the current government. This is what the Thai media does, so it doesn't have to do any hard work. It is much easier for The Nation to blame a foreign country, like the US, that won't fight back when being attacked in the media than it is to make Thai politicians accountable for their moronic policies and hair-brained schemes. The Nation knows that anti-American propaganda is easy copy that will sell and make the Thai politicians happy at the same time, because instead of focusing on what Thais could do to prevent Aids from occurring, like eliminating the sex industry or mandating sex education in the class rooms, it wants to make the United States responsible for a problem that was self-inflicted and could be cured through a change in Thai sexual behavior and public policy.
Abbot, the US drug firm in question, has drawn criticism for reportedly planning to withhold the marketing of a heat-stable form of the HIV/Aids drug as a punitive measure. The Thai government, meanwhile, is being accused of violating patents for its own benefit and, being allegedly poorly equipped, putting the lives of Thai citizens at risk.
No company should be forced to sell it products to a country when that country is notoriously corrupt, immoral and is bent on re-selling cheap imitations of that company's products to third parties in other countries.
When human lives are at stake, it's sad that two parties responsible for saving them are virtually calling each other murderers.
The simple matter of how we can make drugs affordable for the people who need them most and, at the same time, give the suppliers enough incentive to carry on researching and manufacturing them, has been clouded.
Neither the US government nor US drug companies are morally responsible for financing Thailand's universal health care system. The Thai government chose to implement universal health care, and it is up to the Thai government to pay for its own health care system. The problem could be solved simply: Raise taxes to pay for the cost of medicine.
As far as this issue is concerned, too many people are doing the right things for the wrong reasons, or doing the wrong things for the right (legal) reasons, or simply doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons.
Do Thai kids supporting Liverpool or Manchester United or any other football team have the right to be "happy" by wearing cheap, fake jerseys? I guess all of us agree that there's little wrong with that.
What an idiotic statement! Thais kids don't need jerseys to enjoy a game of football. And if they enjoy their team to the point they want to wear a jersey, those Thai kids can get jobs, save their money, and take pride in the fact that they earned their jerseys rather than stole them. But, for Tulsie, this notion of personal responsibility and taking pride in one's own accomplishments without taking short cuts and cheating is an alien concept to him.
But in this world where everything is attached to copyrights or intellectual property rights, the simplicity ends there. Fortunately, those kids won't die if fake shirts are taken off the streets or if the Thai authorities and the football clubs spend an eternity squabbling.
Do dying patients all deserve immediate access to affordable drugs, given that the world is now capable of producing them - anywhere, any time and in an instant?
Of course, dying patients deserve the best treatment possible, and nothing is stopping them from receiving treatment and those drugs except that the Thai government wants to steal those drugs rather than raising taxes and paying for them.
At a time when "democracy" and "human rights" are supposed to be more indomitable than ever, and at a time when our world is richer and better equipped than ever, it's just strange that this still has to be a question.
Tulsie's argument is truly amazing. If the United States decided to implement universal health care tomorrow, it would have to find a way to pay for it. It wouldn't be stealing from Thai companies to finance its health care system.
The truth is that Thailand's education system is horrible, so many Thais don't create anything worthwhile for the world market, especially when it comes to lifesaving pharmaceuticals.
So instead of improving the education system and producing world class scientists, it wants to rip off the technology of other countries.
Also, the Thai government doesn't want to pay for something when it can steal it. Just think what if the politicians and generals weren't busy stealing from the people and lining their pockets, how much money the Thai government could invest in other areas. Thai generals, ministers, and politicians live their lives stealing from Thais, so they certainly have no shame when it comes to stealing from foreigners, and if they can make a right-wing propaganda campaign out of it, then all the better.
And what of all the Thai billionaires, who have done nothing to pay for the health care costs of the poor?
What exactly is there responsibility?
Tulsie believes the rest of the world should take care of Thailand's sick and indigent, yet asks nothing of the politicians, generals and billionaires who have been cheating the Thai tax payers and consumers for decades.
And, instead of calling for a raising of taxes on sin products and on the sex industry, Tulsie believes that the US should foot the bill.
This attitude is prevalent in Thai society. Why should a Thai pay when you can bill the farang!
33 comments:
This issue is bigger than just Thailand doing the wrong thing.
Big Pharma and the patents system is failing - why continue to support that system?
Can't you see that lobbying by vested interest groups is holding back the formulation of alternative ways of funding medical research which will prove to be both more efficient, and more equitable?
Tulsathit is an idiot. He's no better than Saprang or Ekkayuth Anchanbutr - always saying they have secret information that they can't tell the public but that if they did, would harm their enemies.
Childish fools.
Shark, I like your straight forward way of saying things -- this govt/junta encourages its citizens to steal IP belonging to other countries while claiming to be "victims". Did anyone here watch an interview by the US ambassador on Monday night? In his interview in perfect Thai, he didn't say we were thieves, but it's wrong to abuse/copy others' intellectual property. What would Thais react if less prosperous countries like Bangladesh or Burma abuse your IP?
Money Quote:
"If Thailand shut down its brothels, massage parlours, red light districts, and other venues that sell sex, the Aids rate would fall. It would probably fall to such a level that the government probably could afford medication for the part of population that doesn't engage in risky sexual behavior."
"The Thai government is shameless for making the US pay for the consequences of its multi-billion dollar sex industry, especially when it refuses to tax the profiteers and users to fund the health consequences of having such an industry."
But I think we increase our military budget to purchase more weaponary from US, so should that make it even? (ha ha)
Since when does we (Thailand) ever look itself in the mirror? It's a lot easier to blame someone else.
Quote from TJtS:
Here is the truth: The Thai government will steal what it can from other countries if it can get away with it.
I think that you are unaware that you are using a loaded word when you say "stealing," which you say repeatedly. This problem comes from the insidious term, "intellectual property."
Nobody considers illegally copying software or music (even commercially) to be morally equivalent to murdering and plundering on the high seas, but that is exactly the link people unknowingly exploit when they use the word "piracy" to mean copyright infringement. I think a similar thing is happening here in your post.
The fruits of intellectual labor do not lend themselves to traditional ideas of "property" because when you copy something, you still retain your own share in its entirety. This is what the Free Software Foundation warns about.
Copyrights, trademarks, and patents are serious. For a government to willfully violate patent law when it can be shown that there is no national health emergency is worth investigation and criticism. But I think it's counterproductive to drop the "steal" word all the time because rational people whom you might otherwise persuade will just see you as a zealot.
Seems like there are alot more nations/organizations that are backing up Thailand:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6637385.stm
And regarding phara companies and doctors. I wonder who is a bigger thief: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/business/09anemia.html?hp
Jason-
It is stealing, at least in my interpretation of the English language.
When one person takes another's property without their permission, then deliberately profits from that taking, I call that stealing.
Most civilizations that believe in private property would call that stealing.
No matter how much legal jargon you choose to dress it up doesn't change this fact.
If I went into your home, took your property, and turned around and used it for my own pleasure or sold it at a profit without your permission, what would you call it?
Jason, what if I knowingly took something you created, that you spent millions of dollars developing with your own money, something that you engineered with all your heart and soul, and decided, hey, you know what, this Jason is a genius, and I could sell his product to the Indians and Chinese for a fraction of what he is selling his creation now, so I am just going to copy his formula, call it something else, and say it is for the good of humanity, and make millions of dollars at Jason's expense?
You wouldn't call that stealing?
If that isn't stealing, then what is it?
Give me an accurate name that would describe what I just wrote if I am inappropriately using the English language.
One could actually make the argument that what the Thais are doing is actually worse than stealing if your measure the harshness of the crime by what the penalties are.
Also, the Thai government is bound by its own laws and treaties that make "unauthorized reproduction" of another company's products a criminal offense.
Try and open www.thailies.com
You will then see/understand the lies that the junta tells its citizens every evening on their tightly controlled tv stations.
(From Matty)
I thought the article by Tulsathit was well articulated and issues of compassion and urgent relief to sufferers versus IP protection deserve more debate than Fonzi's disdain for today's Thailand and Nation News merely because Thailand had rejected that disgraced Thaksin, Fonzi's idol (he'll deny that of course).
Big Pharma itself is the issue here. Big Pharma's pursuit of the big profits and Big Pharma's many unethical transgressions are long well known and documented. One recent is the Anemia medication (overly prescribed and dangerous according to scientists in the know) Big Pharma is paying doctors to over prescribe to unknowing patient-sufferers more often putting these sufferers in more danger than they realize.
Ex-President Clinton has entered the fray . . this time on the side of Brazil and Thailand. Ex-President Clinton conveys the same sentiment as Tulsathit; e.g., Big Profits slightly diminished will not be fatal for Big Pharma. But Big Pharma pursuit of Big Profits is definitely fatal to patients in dire need.
Tulsathit is definitely NOT an idiot, but compassionate. If only certain people can be more compassionate . . .
Matty-
Be compassionate all you want, with your own money, but it is unethical to be compassionate on somebody else's saleung. In fact, it is a sin.
I don't know of any Thai people when they make merit who run over to their neighbor's house, steal their food, then give to the monks as if they were making merit in their own name.
And, what your buddy Tulsie is advocating, Matty, is that the US and its companies pay for Thailand's hospital bills.
Guess what? It is not America's responsibility to pay for Thailand's problems. Thailand is a grown up country with an ancient civilization. It no longer needs to rely on the "we are poor, small and helpless" excuse any more. Thailand needs to be treated like one of the big boys instead of like a child. In other words, it is time to grow up.
It is not America's responsibility to pay for the health consequences of Thailand's multi-billion dollar sex industry. Thailand needs to face the consequences of having such an industry.
I know Big Pharma sucks. There are a lot of industries and people in this world who suck, but, guess what Matty, just because they suck doesn't make it right to rip them off.
By the way, Matty, there are many things in Thailand that need urgent attention, why is it that the government only gets excited about helping the poor when there is an evil foreign adversary involved, huh?
Fonzi,
Thanks for taking the time to address my comment.
Of course, If I spent millions of dollars on a product and you just copied my formula, that would just be my tough luck. I think you probably meant that I had patented my formula first. In that case, you would be breaking patent law, which is not what we commonly call "theft." My point is that saying "stealing" is a loaded word that makes people think you have an agenda to push. I posit that it is misleading to call patent violation stealing because patented processes are not physical objects because they have the curious quality that when stolen, the original owner still has his original.
I'm sorry to sound pedantic, but I actually agree with you primarily because I see no "emergency" here, which is required for CL. So in the interest of convincing people of this viewpoint and not sounding like a corporate hack, it's best to avoid the vague "intellectual property theft" and use a more unequivocal term, like, say, "complete disregard for international patents."
This is exactly the same as the words pro-life, pro-choice, intellegent design, and plenty of others in that they can be a detriment to your cause if people are turned off when they hear it. That's all!
Jason-
I understand your point. I don't think you are being pedantic. And I appreciate the linguistic distinctions.
But, when you really break down all the legalistic jargon, I think when all is said and done, it comes down to taking somebody's property or reproducing another's property without their permission(which means stealing in everyday language), and in this particular case, it isn't just my ethical belief system, because as you know, patents, copyrights, other IP are protected by US law, Thai law, and international treaties.
We all live under WTO, previously Gatt, trade regimes, that have been negotiated over a long period of time.
The Thai government is not acting good faith. It is deliberately violating its international obligations under the WTO, violating its bilateral agreements with the US, and actually breaking Thai law, and the reason it is doing this because it doesn't want to raise taxes on Thais to pay for universal health care in Thailand.
And, as you pointed out, the Aids problem in Thailand is not a national medical emergency, because if it was, the Thai government would shut down its multi-billion dollar sex industry, invest billions in research and development for a vaccine, and.or tax the sex industry to pay for universal health care.
Thailand does have the financial resources to pay for medicine, but it chooses to use to put those resources in other areas, like putting obscene amounts of corruption money in the pockets of bureaucrats, politicians, generals and policemen.
I agree with Bill Clinton that it's a 'life or death' matter.
There is an ongoing lobbying war and the pressure on Thailand has been intensified because it is a weak target in the ideological argument the USA has with many countries about pricing of medicines.
abbotsgreed
Fonzi: Your ethics and mine are clearly different. You want to protect patents and income streams, when I would rather see lives protected.
Quoting from earlier posting: "....Thailand had rejected that disgraced Thaksin, Fonzi's idol ..."
I beg your pardon -- this topic has nothing to do with this man -- why quote this man's name whenever any issue arises. Are you so allergic or scared of this person ?
abbotsgreed: the issue at hand here is not whether people are not being treated, to my knowledge nobody has said patients are dying because they cant get the drugs. What is at issue here is who gets the profits. Abbot does and Thailand would quite like to. From what has been said, the GPO is incompetent and has distributed poor quality drugs that actually increase viral resistance which *does* affect patients, and GPO also hikes up profits to a point where the drugs it sells are sometimes actually more expensive than importing. I would love to know who is creaming off the benefit because this it Thailand and someone sure as eggs will be.
In terms of the 'theft' semantic argument. Theft is defined as taking another persons property or money intending to permanently deprive them of it. The effect of what Thailand is doing is taking the profits from selling drugs, intending to permanently deprive Abbott of them. It also takes Abbot intellectual property exclusivity rights, intending to permanently deprive them of it. So it clearly is theft and I cant see what all the argument is about. Unless of course some people just dont like the word 'theft'. Too stark perhaps. In which case they shouldnt be living in Thailand where theft is rife, particularly from foreigners.
Anonymous said "...to my knowledge nobody has said patients are dying because they cant get the drugs"
What planet are you living on?
Like I said before - this issue is bigger than just Thailand.
>>Fonzi: Your ethics and mine are clearly different. You want to protect patents and income streams, when I would rather see lives protected.<<
The difference between you and me Hobby is that I believe in taking responsibility for one's own moral decisions and personally paying for the consequences of those personal decisions. You believe somebody else should be billed for your morality.
In other words, I don't believe in stealing from Peter to pay Paul.
If Thailand wants universal health care, it should tax its own people to pay for it.
If Thailand is worried about people dying from Aids, it should stop promoting and profiting from the sex industry.
And if sex industry is causing a health crisis in the country, then it should be taxed, just like alcohol and cigarettes are taxed to pay for the health consequences of those products. And the tax money should be directed towards paying for the Thailand's medical bills.
Very simple, ethical solution that has has nothing to do with stealing from another country.
Fonzi: That's OK in relation to Thailand, but what about the real third world?
This is the third time I have made the point that this issue is bigger than just Thailand.
Surely you do not believe that all poor patients are sick due to a lack of morality.
Big Pharma is all about profits, shareholders, CEO salaries & Marketing budgets and is not interested in helping poor patients if those objectives cannot be met - that's why I think your beloved patents/IP rights system is a failure.
Thanks for the morality lecture, but I still disagree with you - Perhaps it's just your American way of viewing things, and it might also surprise you that there is another way of seeing things.
(Different philosophy on life - Have you ever wondered why many drugs are cheaper in Canada, and some US citizens try to purchase their medicine from Canada?)
Hobby-
You might be surprised, but I dohave more sympathy for countries that are truly poor in Africa that have no resources and are totally broke. Under the WTO agreements, they actually do have "national medical emergencies."
Thailand and Brazil are not poor countries. And most of their problems related to Aids in those countries are self-inflicted by tolerating multi-billion dollar sex industries.
Thailand is the second biggest economy in SEA with a $700 billion economy.
Brazil is the richest country in Latin America and one of the fastest, most dynamic economies in the world.
Thailand and Brazil have no excuses.
The poorest of the poor in Africa do have excuses.
There is a huge difference. So, yes, I make the distinction.
By the way, I have a way of seeing things that has nothing to do with nationality.
I know this might be hard for somebody like you to believe, but nationality or national origin have nothing to to do with my personal integrity.
I don't know where you come from, and I don't really care, but obviously you believe that other people, Americans in this case, should be robbed to pay for your belief system, which is something I consider immoral.
I don't believe in robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Many times you have said that you don't believe in the rule of law(especially regarding Thailand), you have justified a military coup, irrational anti-Americanism, have stood against democracy and political freedom, and advocate stealing other people's property to pay for your "ethics."
You may consider me myopic, but, quite frankly, I am happy and intellectually satisfied that I don't share your world view.
(From Matty)
You repeat it often enough Ponzi, your "personal integrity" and your "intellectual satisfaction" and maybe you too will believe it.
But you are much quicker than even Edelman (Thaksin's ex-lobbyist) to make sweeping accusation: "The Rest of the World Makes Cool Stuff, Thailand Likes to Steal it" equating pirated DVD's (which is available all over world by the way, and not only at Pantip) with life-and-death issue of Big Pharma's expensive patents on Aids and other fatal diseases.
I get very suspicious of people who say they are very honest s.o.b.s Ponzi!
Fonzi: If you look back over my comments in this thread you will see that I thought the Big Pharma lobbying issue was not only about Thailand.
The free market system fails to produce affordable medicines. Big corporates are not motivated to save lives, they just want to make a profit.
Therefore I suggested we need an alternative way of funding medical research.
Calls to change the Big Pharma model is seen as a threat by Big Pharma and they are involved in an intense lobbying war.
I kept saying it was about more than Thailand and you kept banging away about Thailand & stealing:
"Be compassionate all you want, with your own money, but it is unethical to be compassionate on somebody else's saleung. In fact, it is a sin."
"I know Big Pharma sucks. There are a lot of industries and people in this world who suck, but, guess what Matty, just because they suck doesn't make it right to rip them off."
"I think when all is said and done, it comes down to taking somebody's property or reproducing another's property without their permission(which means stealing in everyday language), and in this particular case, it isn't just my ethical belief system, because as you know, patents, copyrights, other IP are protected by US law, Thai law, and international treaties".
I said: "Your ethics and mine are clearly different. You want to protect patents and income streams, when I would rather see lives protected".
Even though to some extent we have been arguing at cross purposes, I too, am happy and intellectually satisfied that I don't share your world view.
>>(From Matty)
You repeat it often enough Ponzi, your "personal integrity" and your "intellectual satisfaction" and maybe you too will believe it.
But you are much quicker than even Edelman (Thaksin's ex-lobbyist) to make sweeping accusation: "The Rest of the World Makes Cool Stuff, Thailand Likes to Steal it" equating pirated DVD's (which is available all over world by the way, and not only at Pantip) with life-and-death issue of Big Pharma's expensive patents on Aids and other fatal diseases.
I get very suspicious of people who say they are very honest s.o.b.s Ponzi!<<
Matty-
You always crack me up.
The truth is that the world does make cool stuff and Thailand does like to steal it.
Other countries do the same thing, but just because other people do it Matty, that doesn't excuse Thailand. Two wrongs don't make it right. Didn't you momma teach you that?
As for sweeping accusations, you still have not given any justifications for the coup after all this time.
We have your theories, accusations, innuendos about Thaksin's crimes, Matty, yet no evidence. Your beloved generals after 7 and half months have given no evidence. Your buddies at The Nation have given no evidence. Plus, no indictments for any crimes committed by the Thai Rak Thai or the police who murdered the drug dealers or the generals who murdered the Muslims on their backs in the South.
Thaksin may be gone, Matty, but all his allies and accomplices remain free and enjoying the high life.
Matty, why aren't you crying about
Somkid, Sudarat, Newin, Purachai, Somsak, Suwat, Thammarak and all the rest of Thaksin's buddies?
Thaksin was one man, Matty, and no man is an island unto himself.
If this coup was about justice, why isn't justice being served?
But, Matty, let us be honest. You don't really give a shit about democracy and the rule of law.
Sweeping accusations is your MO, especially against your political enemies.
Your fixation is Thaksin, and whatever it takes to get him, regardless if the entire country loses its political liberties, is cool with you.
I am cool with that Matty, if that is your stand, but please don't pretend that you stand for anything else other than your revenge.
(From Matty)
There! Now don't you feel better Ponzi getting it out your chest and shouting to the world that yes, indeed, Ponzi is a Thaksin man?
It is never easy talking about 'personal integrity' and 'intellectual satisfaction' on such a heavy subject as Thailand breaking Big Pharma's patent, when all you really wanted to do Ponzi is continue where Edelman left off.
We do have to earn a living, right Ponzi? And mudslinging Thailand, because Thaksin ordered you to, do pay the rent.
Instead of 'personal integrity' and 'intellectual satisfaction' Ponzi, maybe we can have a better discussion about today's high cost of living and how to meet our rent.
Matty-
I am disappointed in you.
You know in your heart that Thaksin hasn't paid me anything, and you do your own intelligence a disservice when you accuse me of such a thing.
You know the old "Thaksin paid you" defense is an easy way out.
You are much better than that, Matty.
hobby, let me give you some news: every company in a capitalist society is all about profits, shareholders, CEO salaries & marketing budgets. Big Pharma, Small Pharma, Bill Oil, Small Oil, Big Media, Small Media, Big New Media, Small New Media, etc.
But guess what: it works. The selection, effectiveness, cost of drugs has been steadily going down for the past century (the cost of medical care has been going up, but that's another matter).
The real reason the Thai junta is making a fuss about things now isn't because HIV patients have skyrocketed or because the government is bankrupt, but because the junta increased the military budget by 35% and needs to save some money in a way that the public wont be outraged. Everybody hates Big Pharma, so no reason not to screw them.
Anonymous (is that one person?) said:"But guess what: it works"
If what we've got is what you call working, I would hate to see failure!
(don't be sidetracked by Thailand, open your eyes and look at Africa for starters)
(From Matty)
If you apologize Ponzi for deliberately scandalizing, misrepresenting, maligning and lying about Thailand with your sweeping statement: "The Rest of the World Makes Cool Stuff, Thailand Likes to Steal it" then I will ease a bit and maybe try very hard to believe that "personal integrity" and "intellectual satisfaction" are what propel you to spend long hours to write insults upon insults at the Kingdom of Thailand merely because the Kingdom of Thailand rejected Thaksin.
Otherwise I am afraid I will have to be content on being a big disappointment to Ponzi.
Ponzi: Has the Baht 28 billion tax bill any effect on Thaksin's ability to fork out his dirty money to glib writers dirty propaganda against Thailand?
I still think the big pharmas are the bigger thieves:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/10/health/10psyche.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/11/business/11drug.html?hp
Case after case I feel like I'm reading this redundantly. Why can't Big Pharmas promote good governance?
Matty-
My philosophy is that Thailand should be the best that it should be and that it needs to stop lying, cheating and taking short cuts.
It should end the corruption, coups, juntas, and low class behavior.
The government should be enabling the people to be good and do good rather than acting as a poor example to the polity.
And that the Thai media should act responsibly in the cause of sustaining Thai democracy.
On the other hand, Matty, you want to justify everything that is bad about Thailand to protect its image.
Guess what, Matty? Thailand's image is already in the toilet, regardless if I am here or not.
Now, you can stand for Thailand's excellence and integrity Matty, or you can stand for its mediocrity and cheating ways.
Up to you, Matty. I know which side I am on.
I dreampt last night that fonzi was hired not by Thaksin but Edelman and I woke up in cold sweat. It can't be. Look at the quality of this blog and it's daylight robbery. Whoever's hiring this man, kill the contract and hire me. (Just kidding, though. No lobbyist company in its right mind is funding a blog as childish, though funny, as this. He must have been doing it on his own free will. Therefore, personal integrity and satisfaction. We have to grant him that.)
Another anonymous
I agree with Jason here on the semantics. Stealing and theft are quiet loaded words, and they can be chosen to use precisely because of their loaded sound, sometimes to emphasise the "seriousness" of the issue. But when there is no real "theft", I would personally also prefer seeing used other words used.
Anonymous wrote also:
"In terms of the 'theft' semantic argument. Theft is defined as taking another persons property or money intending to permanently deprive them of it."
This has multiple examples, use of theft and stealing, especially in recent years when the RIAA and MPAA has attacked against music downloaders, where this has been gone over and over again. As the copying of cd does not steal anyones tangible assets and so on. This has followed by a lot of heated debate on the copyright lobbyists use of words in Scandinavia...
Breaking patent the orginal owner has not lost anything tangible.
Now, another example of precisly this use of words: it used to be that criminal stole a car, it's criminal term was here for long time "illegal vehicle use". Believe it or not. And this pissed off normal citizens who felt that how it is not called stealing when some punk ass goes and steals your car, joyrides and burns it in the end. After years of pressure, they changed the law to say "car theft" (along with other tweaks to the law)...Anyway, this as just a little quircky sidenote, out of the topic. :)
-Mike
(From Matty)
Ponzi you have NOT responded to my question: "Are you Thai Ponzi or are you just slime from Patpong gutter unswept?"
"Does Thaksin pay you piece rate or is it Potjman?"
But OK carry on with your 'personal integrity' and 'intellectually satisfying' cursade.
"Guess what, Matty? Thailand's image is already in the toilet, regardless if I am here or not." Were you Ponzi motivated to make that malicious statement merely because Thaksin has been flushed down the toilet Ponzi?
Here we go again with the “stealing” argument. I’d like someone to explain how Thailand can be “stealing” something or “breaking” or “violating” patent rules, when it is using an international right that is given to any country in the world and has been used by many7 country in the world (including the US who is probably the first user in the world to use the TRIPS agreement)
Has any of you bothered reading the TRIPS agreement? Or listening to the head of the WHO? Or the Washington School of law? All theses people and organizations have said that Thailand actions is lawful. This is not even disputed by Washington! Hence there can not be any “stealing” involved.
Now you may not like it, like USA for innovation whose website maybe an interesting but is beside the point.
So let’s say it one more time “THAILAND ACTION IS LEGAL”.
Because if abiding to the law is now illegal, I don’t know in which world you are living.
End of the story
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