Saturday, September 1, 2007

Real Life Thailand: Red and White's Eloquent and Thoughtful Defense of Free Speech

Restrictions on freedom of speech are simply a form a thought control and involve a huge amount of power. Thailand must accept that if it wants to be a fore player in the modern world, it must at least accept that other nations allow freedom of speech. What's more, Thailand's powers that be should perhaps consider allowing Thai people to decide for themselves what is allowed to be said and thought about, rather than employing themselves as moral guardians and thought police for millions of people who never invited them to do so.

Read the rest here.

Now, I hope Red and White will pressure his buddies over at The Nation to print the facts, as he has done, instead of fabricating a story to justify its nationalist ideology.


sooksiam said...

"Thailand must accept that if it wants to be a fore player in the modern world, it must at least accept that other nations allow freedom of speech."

Fore player in the modern world? Where is this idea coming from? I personally think that the majority of people including myself just want to live their lives freely without having any authoritative dingbats to guide or limit what they do as long as it is not against the sensible law. I agree that the country must allow its citizens to think creatively and logically.

Fonzi, what on earth is wrong with you? The Nation can publish whatever it wants. It is freedom of the press and I think people can make their minds up when they read the news.

In the end, you merely want to bias people to think the same as you: obsessive compulsive aginst the Nation.

Free speech, remember?

Fonzi said...


Unlike The Nation, I don't advocate banning anybody who doesn't agree with me.

The Nation can print what it wants; I can print what I want. We can criticize each other until the next life.

Why do you have a problem with me criticizing The Nation? You seem to be the one advocating one-sided debate, the side that only prints what you want to hear rather than the facts.

And all I ever demand from The Nation are the facts, decency, professionalism and integrity.

Why do you have problem with this?

Anonymous said...

'. . .I don't advocate banning anybody who doesn't agree with me' - Fonzi you make it sound like Nation specially picked on you or were you posting at Nation forums in your other moniker Tosakan?

Why don't you just say it straight Fonzi? You hate The Nation because this newspaper was the leading media in the non-stop criticism of Thaksin Shinawatra that led to the street protests w/c provoked the coup?

I sympathize with you Fonzi. When you defend an extrajudicially killing tax evading conflicted self-enriching Thaksin Shinawatra, you won't find many newspapers or media who will need your talents. You can try appying with Samak though as he may need just your type of 'fearless' nonsense.

Unknown said...

This article is revealing. First, it demonstrates that Thais appear to believe they can be important in the world; a view which is not supported by any facts I am aware of. Secondly it rightly points out that the puyai generally believes it is his/her role to protect the morality and cultural inheritance of his/her less fortunate brothers and sisters. A very patronising and offensive (to non-Thai adults) view. I believe a good case can be made for saying that Thai culture and tradition is a millstone around the neck of Thailand, one which the elite will simply not allow to be removed or lightened. Shame.

In fact, so far from being a world leader (laugh), I think it is possible that Thailand is going to struggle not to face a revolution in the next 20 years as the people who have been deliberately kept poor and stupid begin to realise that the elite have been treating the national economy as their own private piggy bank for a very long time. I think the trigger for this epiphany is likely to be the death of HMK, at which time, the propaganda notion that he is semi-divine (and therefore likely to be immortal) will be shown for what it is worth. I was astonished to find that many of the poor in Thailand actually see to believe he will never die. Trouble looms when he does methinks.

Fonzi said...


I have no problem with The Nation having a political agenda, even an anti-Thaksin one, but if they do have an agenda, it shouldn't play us for fools and at least have the common courtesy to actually back up its ideology with facts.

This is what I don't get about you Matty.

Don't you want a major news organization actually giving you facts so you can defend your hatred of Thaksin?

So far, The Nation hasn't produced any, and you certainly haven't produced any. so your credibility is less than zero.

Anonymous said...

What 'facts' are you talking about Fonzi? The 'pattern' of Thaksin's criminal abuses were so widely publicized even a high school student could see Thaksin was NOT democratic, Thaksin did NOT observe the rule of law, Thaksin was murderously extrajudicial, Thaksin was divisive, Thaksin was tax evasive, and Thaksin was a-la Marcos only serving himself, his family and was never about any ideology or welfare of the people.

The only 'reality' you cling to Fonzi is that Thaksin was elected by the majority but even that claim is tainted by Thaksin's massive vote buying and suborning election tactics, which included keeping Election Commission officials in his pockets.

Thaksin never carried any real 'compassion' for the poor of Thailand. (Can an extrajudicial killer be compassionate?) Thaksin was just one other crooked politician in the end . . . except that Thaksin's dishonesty and deceit was Godzilian compared to previous other crooked Thai politicians

All you paid pro-Thaksin sycophants and courtiers will spin endless lies to paint Thaksin in a better light. You have tried Fonzi. Bangkok Pundit also tried. And so many other bloggers at New Mandala also tried. But my impression of Thaksin Shinawatra had not improved . . . the more I learned of Thaksin from the forums, the more convinced I am that Thaksin was indeed a deadly threat and danger to Thailand and his removal was godsend.

sooksiam said...

Advocating one-sided debate? I thought that is what you have been doing all along? Fonzi, are you kidding me right? I have no problem with you laying into the Nation; but I have not yet seen you articulating your pearl of a thought to dissect any of Thaksin's ideologies and policy. How about beginning with the shoot-to-kill sadistic campaign? Can you enlighten me Fonzi? Why did the bygone square-faced PM do nothing to prevent those drug addicts from being brutally murdered by the Thai authorities, despite the fact that he had his entire power to do so?

I know where you are going to go from here. You will certainly ask why the family of those people have not come forward. How about this, Fonzi? Deep down in their hearts, they are keen to seek justice for their relatives, but they have already lost faith in the justice system of the country? Who is going to guarantee their safety? Maybe you could give me an answer for that?

Del said...

sooksiam 6:19 PM got to the heart of the matter.

Thaksin could have stopped the killings as soon as the human rights groups started reporting the carnage. But Thaksin instead gauged the 'popularity' of the ongoing shoot-to-kills then relished his adrenalin rush from the 'thumbs up' feedback from TRT sycophants about the 'kills success'. Thus followed even more blacklists and even more weekly kills and for good effect Thaksin then publicly uttered his infamous 'The UN is not my father' creed.

Those are the facts Fonzi. Thaksin may NOT have pulled the trigger Fonzi but Thaksin's hands were surely drenched with the blood of his extrajudicial victims!

Fonzi said...

Sookie wrote-

I know where you are going to go from here. You will certainly ask why the family of those people have not come forward. How about this, Fonzi? Deep down in their hearts, they are keen to seek justice for their relatives, but they have already lost faith in the justice system of the country? Who is going to guarantee their safety? Maybe you could give me an answer for that?<<

Why should they be afraid when they have the worthless Thai press and military junta that controls all the police apparatuses of the country ready and willing to use them as propaganda to get Thaksin?

It has been 10 1/2 months since the coup, yet neither the victims of the "extra-judicial rampage" nor the government has sued Thaksin for breaking the law(regarding the drug war) or violating civil liberties of Thai citizens.

You guys say that Thaksin is guilty of crimes that have been proven nowhere, and no plaintiff or prosecutor has taken him to court.

Further, no police or military officer has filed an administrative report or complaint, charging that Thaksin or one of his immediate cronies ordered them to murder drug dealers.

It would not be difficult to get Thaksin on human rights abuses, because the police are still in power and all his immediate underlings are still in the country. Why not haul that paragon of virture Purachai(Thaksin's interior and justice minister) in front of the prosecutor? You guys seem to think that it is OK Thaksin's chief henchman on the War on Drugs is running around free as a member of the NLA. Actually, you guys complain about me, who is a nobody and has never had political power in his life, yet silent about Purachai, Sudarat, Somsak, Newin and Somkid enabling and abetting Thaksin. You are silent about Sanoh aiding and abetting Thaksin. You are silent about Chavalit aiding and abetting Thaksin. You guys seem to forget they were part of the War on Drugs. But you ain't crying about their human rights abuses.

I think it interesting that you cry about how the War on Drugs was a horrendous criminal act committed by Thaksin, yet silent about all those who administered it. If the War on Drugs was truly a horrendous thing, I would think you would want to go after all those who committed crimes because of it. But no, you are silent.

Instead of wasting your time with me, who has no money or power or staff, how come you are not pushing the Thai media and the public prosecutors to go after the police and politicians who were administering Thaksin's drug war.

You keep harping to me about the drug war and the extrajudicial killings, yet silent about the Thai media not pursuing the story, yet silent about the politicians still not in jail for administering it, still silent about the police and military generals who ordered their underlings to kill people.

I am important to you, but you allow The Nation, Bangkok Post and the Thai language media to get away with their bullshit. I can't go after the police and the politicians. But other Thai media outlets can. I think it is funny you are concerned with me, a nobody with no money or power, but allow those multimedia groups with power to do nothing.

But, you see, I know you, Matty, SVL, Hobby and the others are not interested in the truth or justice, or you would be pursuing it. Rather, you are more concerned with blaming Thaksin for all of Thailand's problems(because it is easy to scapegoat a person who can't defend himself) on this stupid little blog that a hundred people read a day, which really doesn't resolve anything except give you personal satisfaction of feeling right about your hatred of Thaksin.

I have no problems with your hatred of Thaksin or your reasons for hating Thaksin, but you should at least be honest about it, and defend your hatred with facts and intellectual consistency, instead of expecting everybody to roll over for your personal feelings and political vendettas.

Unknown said...

I like your one-sided debate and the best effort you put to protect Thaksin. As for The Nation, at least it is read by many thousands and if the paper DOESN'T carry any truth as you claim, its future is at risks and people will judge it. It is the same thing many thousands educated Thais roamed the streets although he took absolutely control of the mass media. You know why? Because in the end, it is the power of people that brings the change. The coup was just an accident. In any "real" democratic country, Thaksin would not have survived the months long protests. And he would not have got away with it and spent his money to buy a football club.

Fonzi said...


Give me one example of The Nation's reporting in the last 6 years that proves with evidence Thaksin's complicity in any crime.

Give me one interview in The Nation testifying to Thaksin's guilt in any of the alleged crimes.

Give me on example of protecting Thaksin. If defending constitutionalism and the rule of law is protecting Thaksin, then so be it, but I would rather "protect Thaksin" than side with militarism and totalitarianism in order to get rid of elected politicians.

Yes, I agree that many people read The Nation's lies and propaganda, and many people believe The Nation's lies and propaganda, because their is little to no media criticism in Thailand..

But, you contradict yourself. One one side of your mouth you say that Thaksin controlled the mass media, then you say that people can read The Nation and judge for themselves. Which is it? Did Thaksin control The Nation, Did Thaksin control Manager?

On one side of your mouth, you say that people bring change, yet you apparently have no respect for the election process that was scheduled in October that could have brought change.

You say that the coup was an accident, yet you ignore Thailand's long history of having coups. The coup was no accident.

In the end, your post is full of self-contradictions, just like many of the Thaksin haters who post on this blog.

hobby said...

Fonzi: I have consistently condemned the TRT officials for going along with Thaksin instead of moderating him.

As for Purachai's role in the war on drugs, I would be interested in further information, because as I recall he was one of the few who stood up to Thaksin (or tried to), and I also was under the impression that Thaksin usurped Purachai's responsibilities during the war on drugs - can you please enlighten me, or point me to some links that can help expand my knowledge?

Unknown said...

Sorry Fonzi,
I was absolutely wrong. I thought you knew a lot about Thailand and Thai media when I said "Thaksin controlled the mass media". I thought you would understand that the newspapers were not included with an exception of an evil popular tabloid that could write anything in praise of deep-pocket Thaksin.

Do I need to tell you, a well-informed blogger? I feel you just played a fool that I contradict myself to raise your "smart" point so that you could raise your own cases. Thaksin is great… God is not… blah blah blah [ The Nation and Manager were reportedly popular because they were two newspapers that still investigated into all Haskin’s corruptions.]

Did I answer your questions? I hope not.

Sorry, I'm not going to answer your questions. I’ll let you play smarty pant criticizing others. But you may like to ask since you keep condemning the Nation: What
gets by propagating and lying? How about you? How much do you get for doing this?

I contradicted myself, did I? I didn’t think so. You portrayed me that way and played naive (such as trying to honor the illegal election in October) just to get your messages across.

Do you really think people don't get any source of information except your excellent and highly 'popular' blog?

At least after all your lies in your blog, you've done one thing right.. You ACCEPT FINALLY THAT YOU PROTECT THAKSIN. Thanks for the only line of truth.

You make it sound slightly better by choosing between junta and Thaksin and lead the readers to think you choose angel rather than devil. Tell you what... here is another question for you: "Before the junta staged the coup, did you Mr Shark Fonzi choose Thaksin rather than innocent Thai people especially victims from his shoot-at-spot drug propaganda?

If I or anybody hates Thaksin, it doesn't generate any income. So we do understand why you do this for a living. But please just do your homework and try to come up with more reliable and construtive information.

And my comment is for free so I'm not obliged to answer anything. That is the advantage of freedom when you're not paid to write.

priapus said...

It's really getting tedious with all those Nation editors masquarading on this blog as independent voices. The Nation is a laughing stock for any foreigner in Thailand with half a brain, boys.

In case you haven't noticed, Thaksin hasn't been the issue for months. Yet here you still are, using him as a poor man's boogieman day in, day out. Meanwhile, the country is going to the dogs, thanks to an incompetent government, but hey, let's blast away at that deposed loser a bit more eh!

Let me second Fonzi here: instead of ranting and raving idiotically, why don't you guys just lay out the charges against him -- in factual specifics, mind you; not just in "Thaksin was a crook, everyone knows" generalities. Let him hang; i don't give a damn -- but try to prove your points for once pls!

Unknown said...

Fonzi- now you can rest assured that you are not alone in this "paid to write propaganda" business. Mr Pee Pee has come to your rescue.
And Oh, like you, s/he also has jumped into conclusion that the different opinions are from Nation editors.
So funny and pathetic in a way that you guys can be bought and also overestimate yourself.

sooksiam said...

I am elated to know that something in Thailand makes other human beings laugh. I am so touched by that. It is good to have a smile on your face from time to time. Isn't that why people choose to come here?

Laugh... and the whole world laughs with you, cry... and you cry alone.

Fonzi said...


Thanks for proving with your barely coherent rant that you have absolutely no evidence.

But this is the typical MO Thaksin haters:

No facts, just spewing unfounded accusations that one is being paid by Thaksin if somebody disagrees with them.

Maveenis, I invite you to write some more, because it shows off your brilliance.

hobby said...

Fonzi: My last post above was a genuine question
(as opposed to the usual point scoring)

hobby said...

This blog has been quiet lately - No need to write a book in answering to my question above - just a few pertinent facts will suffice.